Reply Reply to all Reply to allForward Forward Print Add Myriam to Contacts list Delete this message Report phishing Show original Message text garbled? Myriam Schweingruber to Ubuntu-Women show details Mar 27 Hi all, Today I posted a response on the german Ubuntu mailinglist. What a surprise to find tonight a private mail in my inbox, asking me my age, to send pictures, if I had a boyfirend/husband, the usual crap! I'm soooo totally sick about that and right now my mood is devastating. As I know the mailinglist I'll report this chap to the list-admin. BTW this coward doesn't use his name, calls himself "urandomdev" and uses a gmail account, wich makes him pretty untraceable... Grrr, I'm so angry I could kill ! Sad greetings, Myriam -- Protect your freedom, join the Fellowship of FSFE! http://www.fsfe.org Please don't send me proprietary file formats, use ISO standard ODF instead (ISO/IEC 26300) -- ubuntu-women mailing list ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-women noname 1K Download Reply Forward Invite Myriam to Gmail Reply Reply to all Reply to allForward Forward Print Add Caroline to Contacts list Delete this message Report phishing Show original Message text garbled? Caroline Ford to Ubuntu-Women show details Mar 27 On Tue, 2007-03-27 at 00:29 +0200, Myriam Schweingruber wrote: > Hi all, > > Today I posted a response on the german Ubuntu mailinglist. What a surprise to > find tonight a private mail in my inbox, asking me my age, to send pictures, > if I had a boyfirend/husband, the usual crap! > > I'm soooo totally sick about that and right now my mood is devastating. As I > know the mailinglist I'll report this chap to the list-admin. > > BTW this coward doesn't use his name, calls himself "urandomdev" and uses a > gmail account, wich makes him pretty untraceable... > > Grrr, I'm so angry I could kill ! > > Sad greetings, Myriam I've had a sexist "joke" on the Ubuntu-UK list and the "leader" of Ubuntu-UK making snide comments about what you are allowed to say after I complained (as though it were a running joke).. Thankfully I don't get this shit in my LUG, and yes there aren't any other women who actively post.. When I was doing bug triage my email was clogged - I checked and found a massive jpeg of some 19 year old guy which I naturally deleted. I've also had bug mail saying that what a problem needed was my female charms. I did no more work on that bug, but didn't send him a "WTF!" email back either.. Unimpressed, particularly with Ubuntu-UK Caroline -- ubuntu-women mailing list ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-women Reply Reply to all Forward Invite Caroline to chat Reply Reply to all Reply to allForward Forward Print Add Rich to Contacts list Delete this message Report phishing Show original Message text garbled? Rich Johnson to caroline.ford.., Ubuntu-Women show details Mar 27 On Monday 26 March 2007, Caroline Ford wrote: [snip] | I've had a sexist "joke" on the Ubuntu-UK list and the "leader" of | Ubuntu-UK making snide comments about what you are allowed to say after I | complained (as though it were a running joke).. Thankfully I don't get this | shit in my LUG, and yes there aren't any other women who actively post.. | | When I was doing bug triage my email was clogged - I checked and found a | massive jpeg of some 19 year old guy which I naturally deleted. | | I've also had bug mail saying that what a problem needed was my female | charms. I did no more work on that bug, but didn't send him a "WTF!" | email back either.. | | Unimpressed, particularly with Ubuntu-UK | | Caroline Hey Caroline, Sorry to hear about this type of stuff still happening today. Childish, sexist, you name it, it doesn't belong. I am willing to bet the people who make/made these remarks more than likely don't commit 50% of what you do to the Ubuntu community. You will hear none of them remarks from me, as you tore apart my kubuntu-docs package for Edgy :) I know it is probably hard to ignore it but we all know you are the better person. Sorry again to hear this Caroline, and just keep up the awesome bug triaging that you do. Oh, and leave kubuntu-docs alone for Feisty this go round ;p -- Rich Johnson nixternal@ubuntu.com GPG Key: 0x2E2C0124 -- ubuntu-women mailing list ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-women noname 1K Download Reply Reply to all Forward Invite Rich to Gmail Reply Reply to all Reply to allForward Forward Print Add Elizabeth to Contacts list Delete this message Report phishing Show original Message text garbled? Elizabeth Bevilacqua to Ubuntu-Women show details Mar 27 Myriam, I am very sorry to hear this! I completely sympathize and you're among friends here, countless women on this list still experience this - and that's why we're here :) I'm glad you're willing to report it to the list admin, too many of us just take it and walk away because it's so infurating and exhausting. Lyz/pleia2 - Show quoted text - On Tue, Mar 27, 2007 at 12:29:09AM +0200, Myriam Schweingruber wrote: > Hi all, > > Today I posted a response on the german Ubuntu mailinglist. What a surprise to > find tonight a private mail in my inbox, asking me my age, to send pictures, > if I had a boyfirend/husband, the usual crap! > > I'm soooo totally sick about that and right now my mood is devastating. As I > know the mailinglist I'll report this chap to the list-admin. > > BTW this coward doesn't use his name, calls himself "urandomdev" and uses a > gmail account, wich makes him pretty untraceable... > > Grrr, I'm so angry I could kill ! > > Sad greetings, Myriam > > -- > Protect your freedom, join the Fellowship of FSFE! > http://www.fsfe.org > Please don't send me proprietary file formats, > use ISO standard ODF instead (ISO/IEC 26300) -- Elizabeth Bevilacqua // Lyz@PrincessLeia.com http://www.princessleia.com - Show quoted text - -- ubuntu-women mailing list ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-women Reply Forward Invite Elizabeth to Gmail Reply Reply to all Reply to allForward Forward Print Add Matt to Contacts list Delete this message Report phishing Show original Message text garbled? Matt Good to Ubuntu-Women show details Mar 27 Wow, that's awful, though I think you've pointed out one of the reasons that many men don't realize that this is still a problem. I think the majority of us are not at all like this and assume that most people are like us. Since in your case this happened through an off-list email the other members of the list don't realize that this kind of conduct is occurring. Definitely report this to the list admin. -- Matt Good On Tue, 2007-03-27 at 00:29 +0200, Myriam Schweingruber wrote: > Hi all, > > Today I posted a response on the german Ubuntu mailinglist. What a surprise to > find tonight a private mail in my inbox, asking me my age, to send pictures, > if I had a boyfirend/husband, the usual crap! > > I'm soooo totally sick about that and right now my mood is devastating. As I > know the mailinglist I'll report this chap to the list-admin. > > BTW this coward doesn't use his name, calls himself "urandomdev" and uses a > gmail account, wich makes him pretty untraceable... > > Grrr, I'm so angry I could kill ! > > Sad greetings, Myriam > -- - Show quoted text - ubuntu-women mailing list ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-women Reply Forward Invite Matt to Gmail Reply Reply to all Reply to allForward Forward Print Add June to Contacts list Delete this message Report phishing Show original Message text garbled? June Bug to Ubuntu-Women show details Mar 27 Hi Myriam... dont let this affect you so much! Just ignore the nasty person. We all have faced such kind of a thing in our lives some or the other point of life. I talk from experience! I've had virtual starlkers... they make your life hell. Easiest way is to ignore them. Report you must to the list admin but dont take the pains of actually worrying yourself to death about it. Some never learn, indeed.. they never will. Just take it easy, block the person on your list. Being a woman makes you vulnerable to such kind of activities but wth! why should we bear the brunt... hit the ignore button and make life easier for you as well as for him. :) June - Show quoted text - Myriam Schweingruber wrote: - Show quoted text - Hi all, Today I posted a response on the german Ubuntu mailinglist. What a surprise to find tonight a private mail in my inbox, asking me my age, to send pictures, if I had a boyfirend/husband, the usual crap! I'm soooo totally sick about that and right now my mood is devastating. As I know the mailinglist I'll report this chap to the list-admin. BTW this coward doesn't use his name, calls himself "urandomdev" and uses a gmail account, wich makes him pretty untraceable... Grrr, I'm so angry I could kill ! Sad greetings, Myriam -- Protect your freedom, join the Fellowship of FSFE! http://www.fsfe.org Please don't send me proprietary file formats, use ISO standard ODF instead (ISO/IEC 26300) -- ubuntu-women mailing list ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-women The Bug Get your own web address. Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business. -- ubuntu-women mailing list ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-women Reply Forward Invite June to Gmail Reply Reply to all Reply to allForward Forward Print Add Myriam to Contacts list Delete this message Report phishing Show original Message text garbled? Myriam Schweingruber to Ubuntu-Women show details Mar 27 Le Mardi, 27. Mars 2007, June Bug a écrit: > Hi Myriam... dont let this affect you so much! Just ignore the nasty > person. We all have faced such kind of a thing in our lives some or the > other point of life. I talk from experience! I've had virtual starlkers... > they make your life hell. Easiest way is to ignore them. Report you must to > the list admin but dont take the pains of actually worrying yourself to > death about it. Some never learn, indeed.. they never will. Oh but I know this, I'm in IT since 20+ years and should be used to it. It just disturbed me so much because this mail came because of me posting on a Ubuntu mailinglist. Please folks, I dont need advice how to handle this sort of people, I probably recived more of this sort of mail in the past than most of you, be assured. I'm just plain angry, main reason for my post, so dont advice, just support. I will certainly not keep my mouth shut and take action, contrary to some of you I don't think this should simply be ignored, because it will continue and this has to stop one day. I want to be able to do my work without such crap, so ignoring it is not the solution. Greets, Myriam - Show quoted text - -- Protect your freedom, join the Fellowship of FSFE! http://www.fsfe.org Please don't send me proprietary file formats, use ISO standard ODF instead (ISO/IEC 26300) -- ubuntu-women mailing list ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-women noname 1K Download Reply Forward Invite Myriam to Gmail Reply Reply to all Reply to allForward Forward Print Add Dennis to Contacts list Delete this message Report phishing Show original Message text garbled? Dennis Kaarsemaker to ubuntu-women show details Mar 27 On di, 2007-03-27 at 13:17 +0200, Myriam Schweingruber wrote: > I will certainly not keep my mouth shut and take action, contrary to some of > you I don't think this should simply be ignored, because it will continue and > this has to stop one day. I want to be able to do my work without such crap, > so ignoring it is not the solution. Good! Give those pigs hell. -- Dennis K. Time is an illusion, lunchtime doubly so. -- ubuntu-women mailing list ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-women signature.asc 1K View Download Reply Forward Invite Dennis to Gmail Reply Reply to all Reply to allForward Forward Print Add Elizabeth to Contacts list Delete this message Report phishing Show original Message text garbled? Elizabeth Bevilacqua to Ubuntu-Women show details Mar 27 On Tue, Mar 27, 2007 at 01:17:57PM +0200, Myriam Schweingruber wrote: > I will certainly not keep my mouth shut and take action, contrary to some of > you I don't think this should simply be ignored, because it will continue and > this has to stop one day. I want to be able to do my work without such crap, > so ignoring it is not the solution. I absolutely agree. While I don't believe it should be our job to police and report these people all the time (sometimes we just want to spend our time contributing to the project!). I do think it's important that rather than hitting that delete key in email or putting someone on ignore in IRC every time that we do stop and say something about it sometimes. The terrible thing about our ignoring it all is while we're toughening our skin and ignoring these people, another woman walked away from Ubuntu and nixternal and Matt Good haven't a clue why. I really like that Myriam posted here. While I don't want to see this list turn into a forum for complaints, I would like to see more women step forward and tell us on the list when things like this happen. In one way it validates our presence here for those who are still unconvinced, and in another way we can let off steam to people who onderstand. Lyz/pleia2 -- Elizabeth Bevilacqua // Lyz@PrincessLeia.com http://www.princessleia.com -- - Show quoted text - ubuntu-women mailing list ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-women Reply Forward Invite Elizabeth to Gmail Reply Reply to all Reply to allForward Forward Print Add Melissa to Contacts list Delete this message Report phishing Show original Message text garbled? Melissa Draper to Ubuntu-Women show details Mar 27 Elizabeth Bevilacqua wrote: > On Tue, Mar 27, 2007 at 01:17:57PM +0200, Myriam Schweingruber wrote: >> I will certainly not keep my mouth shut and take action, contrary to some of >> you I don't think this should simply be ignored, because it will continue and >> this has to stop one day. I want to be able to do my work without such crap, >> so ignoring it is not the solution. >> > > I absolutely agree. > > While I don't believe it should be our job to police and report these > people all the time (sometimes we just want to spend our time > contributing to the project!). I do think it's important that rather > than hitting that delete key in email or putting someone on ignore in > IRC every time that we do stop and say something about it sometimes. > > The terrible thing about our ignoring it all is while we're toughening > our skin and ignoring these people, another woman walked away from > Ubuntu and nixternal and Matt Good haven't a clue why. > > I really like that Myriam posted here. While I don't want to see this > list turn into a forum for complaints, I would like to see more women > step forward and tell us on the list when things like this happen. In > one way it validates our presence here for those who are still > unconvinced, and in another way we can let off steam to people who > onderstand. Precisely. Take the recent harassment of the Kathy Sierra for example, and the general reaction that occurred in #ubuntu-offtopic when my blog post about such things was announced by the bot, via planet. It's not a good thing. This crap has been happening for years, and often those on the receiving end are dismissed as though they're making it up, or told off for paying attention to it. Some of what happens *is* quite serious, and when it comes to repeated harrassment via multiple means, or death threats, it's hard to not notice it. > Lyz/pleia2 > > -- Sincerely Melissa Draper http://www.meldraweb.com Phone: 0404 595 395 (intl): +61 404 595 395 P.O Box 1412 Lavington, NSW 2641 - Show quoted text - -- ubuntu-women mailing list ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-women Reply Forward Invite Melissa to Gmail Reply Reply to all Reply to allForward Forward Print Add June to Contacts list Delete this message Report phishing Show original Message text garbled? June Bug to Ubuntu-Women show details Mar 27 Oh but I know this, I'm in IT since 20+ years and should be used to it. It just disturbed me so much because this mail came because of me posting on a Ubuntu mailinglist. -Okay. I think men of that sort tend to post anywhere. Please folks, I dont need advice how to handle this sort of people, I probably recived more of this sort of mail in the past than most of you, be assured. I'm just plain angry, main reason for my post, so dont advice, just support. - Sorry if it sounded like advice or something, I was just trying to help. Anyway, surely of us here are with you. I will certainly not keep my mouth shut and take action, contrary to some of you I don't think this should simply be ignored, because it will continue and this has to stop one day. I want to be able to do my work without such crap, so ignoring it is not the solution. - I did mention of reporting it. Besides ignoring it helps sometimes. Prolly not in this case. If it keeps happening over and over again.. I Guess you know what to do better.. since you've been here more than me. Greets, Myriam Thanks June The Bug 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. -- ubuntu-women mailing list ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-women Reply Forward Invite June to Gmail Reply Reply to all Reply to allForward Forward Print Add Joel to Contacts list Delete this message Report phishing Show original Message text garbled? Joel Bryan Juliano to Ubuntu-Women show details Mar 27 On 3/27/07, Myriam Schweingruber wrote: Le Mardi, 27. Mars 2007, June Bug a écrit: > Hi Myriam... dont let this affect you so much! Just ignore the nasty > person. We all have faced such kind of a thing in our lives some or the > other point of life. I talk from experience! I've had virtual starlkers... > they make your life hell. Easiest way is to ignore them. Report you must to > the list admin but dont take the pains of actually worrying yourself to > death about it. Some never learn, indeed.. they never will. Oh but I know this, I'm in IT since 20+ years and should be used to it. It just disturbed me so much because this mail came because of me posting on a Ubuntu mailinglist. Please folks, I dont need advice how to handle this sort of people, I probably recived more of this sort of mail in the past than most of you, be assured. I'm just plain angry, main reason for my post, so dont advice, just support. I will certainly not keep my mouth shut and take action, contrary to some of you I don't think this should simply be ignored, because it will continue and this has to stop one day. I want to be able to do my work without such crap, so ignoring it is not the solution. Greets, Myriam I think the Ubuntu code of conduct should be updated with the following rules. 1. Don't PM the Ubuntu members specially the opposite sex asking their age, their pictures, marital status and the usual crap, because they are crossing the line by doing so, and subjected to be expelled from the Ubuntu community. 2. Don't even be interested on the opposite sex because that's crap. Sounds good? -- MAILING-LIST SEND: boom!! I'm immortalize! -- ubuntu-women mailing list ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-women Reply Forward Invite Joel to chat Reply Reply to all Reply to allForward Forward Print Add Elizabeth to Contacts list Delete this message Report phishing Show original Message text garbled? Elizabeth Bevilacqua to Ubuntu-Women show details Mar 27 On Tue, Mar 27, 2007 at 09:59:23PM +0800, Joel Bryan Juliano wrote: > 2. Don't even be interested on the opposite sex because that's crap. You may want to read the "HOWTO Encourage Women in Linux" specifically this part: "Don't make sexual advances towards women" http://infohost.nmt.edu/~val/howto.html#i__145605744_668 We're not asking people to be inhuman. -- Elizabeth Bevilacqua // Lyz@PrincessLeia.com http://www.princessleia.com -- - Show quoted text - ubuntu-women mailing list ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-women Reply Forward Invite Elizabeth to Gmail Reply Reply to all Reply to allForward Forward Print Add bapoumba to Contacts list Delete this message Report phishing Show original Message text garbled? bapoumba to Ubuntu-Women show details Mar 27 > On 3/27/07, Myriam Schweingruber > wrote: > > I will certainly not keep my mouth shut and take action, contrary to some > of > > you I don't think this should simply be ignored, because it will continue > and > > this has to stop one day. I want to be able to do my work without such > crap, > > so ignoring it is not the solution. > > > > Greets, Myriam Hey Myriam, I also think that talking about it, making clear this is not acceptable (and from both men and women points of view) is the only way to go. My perception is that the Ubuntu community is very friendly overall, even if I have already been through this too. >On 3/27/07, Joel Bryan Juliano wrote: > > I think the Ubuntu code of conduct should be updated with the following > rules. > > 1. Don't PM the Ubuntu members specially the opposite sex asking their age, > their pictures, marital status > and the usual crap, because they are crossing the line by doing so, and > subjected to be expelled from the > Ubuntu community. > > 2. Don't even be interested on the opposite sex because that's crap. > > Sounds good? Oh please ... Tell me this was as a very poor taste joke. Cheers to you, Myriam, Isabelle. -- bapoumba - Show quoted text - -- ubuntu-women mailing list ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-women Reply Forward Invite bapoumba to chat Reply Reply to all Reply to allForward Forward Print Add Myriam to Contacts list Delete this message Report phishing Show original Message text garbled? Myriam Schweingruber to Ubuntu-Women show details Mar 27 Le Mardi, 27. Mars 2007, Joel Bryan Juliano a écrit: > On 3/27/07, Myriam Schweingruber wrote: > > > > I will certainly not keep my mouth shut and take action, contrary to some > > of > > you I don't think this should simply be ignored, because it will continue > > and > > this has to stop one day. I want to be able to do my work without such > > crap, > > so ignoring it is not the solution. > > I think the Ubuntu code of conduct should be updated with the following > rules. > > 1. Don't PM the Ubuntu members specially the opposite sex asking their age, > their pictures, marital status > and the usual crap, because they are crossing the line by doing so, and > subjected to be expelled from the > Ubuntu community. > > 2. Don't even be interested on the opposite sex because that's crap. Joel, this is not a matter to joke about. Especially as an Ubuntero you should be a little more respectful. If you don't understand the point: women don't want to be bothered on technical lists, forums or chats because they are women. Never heard that men are asked for personal informations like pictures on such lists, so why should women be. Regards, Myriam - Show quoted text - -- Protect your freedom, join the Fellowship of FSFE! http://www.fsfe.org Please don't send me proprietary file formats, use ISO standard ODF instead (ISO/IEC 26300) -- ubuntu-women mailing list ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-women noname 1K Download Reply Forward Invite Myriam to Gmail Reply Reply to all Reply to allForward Forward Print Add Joel to Contacts list Delete this message Report phishing Show original Message text garbled? Joel Bryan Juliano to Ubuntu-Women show details Mar 27 - Show quoted text - On 3/27/07, bapoumba wrote: - Show quoted text - > On 3/27/07, Myriam Schweingruber > wrote: > > I will certainly not keep my mouth shut and take action, contrary to some > of > > you I don't think this should simply be ignored, because it will continue > and > > this has to stop one day. I want to be able to do my work without such > crap, > > so ignoring it is not the solution. > > > > Greets, Myriam Hey Myriam, I also think that talking about it, making clear this is not acceptable (and from both men and women points of view) is the only way to go. My perception is that the Ubuntu community is very friendly overall, even if I have already been through this too. >On 3/27/07, Joel Bryan Juliano wrote: > > I think the Ubuntu code of conduct should be updated with the following > rules. > > 1. Don't PM the Ubuntu members specially the opposite sex asking their age, > their pictures, marital status > and the usual crap, because they are crossing the line by doing so, and > subjected to be expelled from the > Ubuntu community. > > 2. Don't even be interested on the opposite sex because that's crap. > > Sounds good? Oh please ... Tell me this was as a very poor taste joke. I know I might be gathering personal disagreements from the ubuntu community, considering I applied all my available SoC applications to Ubuntu and crossing my fingers that personal hate would be out of the picture. I am risking myself and everything just to voice out my opinion. I just want to say that this would be the expected norms from any community. I know those people are odd, I sympathize on what happen but I must say that not all people are on the same level. There are people that we can get along so well, and there are that we can never seems to get along. Sometimes, it is really important to remind us that we are not perfect. Cheers to you, Myriam, Isabelle. -- bapoumba -- ubuntu-women mailing list ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-women - Show quoted text - -- MAILING-LIST SEND: boom!! I'm immortalize! -- ubuntu-women mailing list ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-women Reply Forward Invite Joel to chat Reply Reply to all Reply to allForward Forward Print Add t to Contacts list Delete this message Report phishing Show original Message text garbled? t u to Ubuntu-Women show details Mar 27 Myriam Schweingruber wrote: > I'm just plain angry, main reason for my post, so dont advice, just support. > > I will certainly not keep my mouth shut and take action, contrary to some of > you I don't think this should simply be ignored, because it will continue and > this has to stop one day. I want to be able to do my work without such crap, > so ignoring it is not the solution. > > Greets, Myriam > > Let me start by saying that, despite the title, people have to learn this stuff. They will have to learn how to think about men and women as equal beings. Anyway, the Ubuntu community has clear codes of conduct. One of these is "be respectful". Members of mailing lists (e.g. ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com) are expected to know what respect is. They need to understand that sexism isn't much different from racism, heterosexism, or ethnocentrism. This is not about some people getting along nicely with others... oppression is disrespectful, to say the least. I always expected that this code of conduct would be enforced by admins (thru warnings as well as bans) when it is necessary. I also expected that Canonical (who owns -afaik- @lists.ubuntu.com) is responsible for disciplining its own admins. I think you mentioned that, let alone taking action against that member, the ubuntu-uk admin was sneaky as well (the ubuntu-women archive don't have the emails on this topic [why?], so I couldn't check). If you are doing anything against this admin, please let us know so we can join you in this as well. This list is supposed to be a safe space for women where they can get [social] support... I don't think support is about saying things like "I'm sorry for you" but about joining together to take action. - Show quoted text - -- ubuntu-women mailing list ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-women Reply Forward Invite t to chat Reply Reply to all Reply to allForward Forward Print Add Matt to Contacts list Delete this message Report phishing Show original Message text garbled? Matt Good to Ubuntu-Women show details Mar 27 On Tue, 2007-03-27 at 08:03 -0400, Elizabeth Bevilacqua wrote: > The terrible thing about our ignoring it all is while we're toughening > our skin and ignoring these people, another woman walked away from > Ubuntu and nixternal and Matt Good haven't a clue why. Sorry, I don't read nixternal, so I don't know what incident you're referring to. Maybe I'm just naive, or I don't subscribe to the mailing lists and blogs where this kind of stuff happens. -- Matt Good - Show quoted text - -- ubuntu-women mailing list ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-women Reply Forward Invite Matt to Gmail Reply Reply to all Reply to allForward Forward Print Add Elizabeth to Contacts list Delete this message Report phishing Show original Message text garbled? Elizabeth Bevilacqua to Ubuntu-Women show details Mar 27 On Tue, Mar 27, 2007 at 01:01:52PM -0400, Matt Good wrote: > On Tue, 2007-03-27 at 08:03 -0400, Elizabeth Bevilacqua wrote: > > The terrible thing about our ignoring it all is while we're toughening > > our skin and ignoring these people, another woman walked away from > > Ubuntu and nixternal and Matt Good haven't a clue why. > > Sorry, I don't read nixternal, so I don't know what incident you're > referring to. Maybe I'm just naive, or I don't subscribe to the mailing > lists and blogs where this kind of stuff happens. I was just using the two of you as good guy examples - you both replied to this thread with similar comments about how "guys don't know this is going on" :) -- Elizabeth Bevilacqua // Lyz@PrincessLeia.com http://www.princessleia.com -- - Show quoted text - ubuntu-women mailing list ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-women Reply Forward Invite Elizabeth to Gmail Reply Reply to all Reply to allForward Forward Print Add Matt to Contacts list Delete this message Report phishing Show original Message text garbled? Matt Good to Ubuntu-Women show details Mar 27 On Tue, 2007-03-27 at 13:12 -0400, Elizabeth Bevilacqua wrote: > On Tue, Mar 27, 2007 at 01:01:52PM -0400, Matt Good wrote: > > On Tue, 2007-03-27 at 08:03 -0400, Elizabeth Bevilacqua wrote: > > > The terrible thing about our ignoring it all is while we're toughening > > > our skin and ignoring these people, another woman walked away from > > > Ubuntu and nixternal and Matt Good haven't a clue why. > > > > Sorry, I don't read nixternal, so I don't know what incident you're > > referring to. Maybe I'm just naive, or I don't subscribe to the mailing > > lists and blogs where this kind of stuff happens. > > I was just using the two of you as good guy examples - you both replied > to this thread with similar comments about how "guys don't know this is > going on" :) Heh, I misread that and didn't realize nixternal was a person (Rich Johnson as I now see in the thread history); email can so easily lead to misunderstandings :). Reading this and the Kathy Sierra post I am realizing I'm probably naive about this happening in parts of the OSS community since it's not something I've seen, particularly not on the level of what's happened with Kathy. -- Matt Good - Show quoted text - -- ubuntu-women mailing list ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-women Reply Forward Invite Matt to Gmail Reply Reply to all Reply to allForward Forward Print Add Lopez to Contacts list Delete this message Report phishing Show original Message text garbled? "B.A. Lopez" to Ubuntu-Women show details Mar 28 Yes, just b/c you don't see it or experience it personally doesn't mean it's not happening. And much of it is subtle and subject to personal/cultural differences so there are those issues as well. Here's tip for any worried about blogging. Since I use Live Journal and don't have access to those server logs I often include a 1 pixel by 1 pixel blank "test image" or even an incorrect image reference to my own domain. i.e. in the html of the post I'll add an image link to "". This generates an error in my server logs as well as recording the IP and machine info. This is how I discovered my ex-boyfriend was reading my LJ and so I quickly started locking more posts to friends- only. . . or in some cases sent out some misinformation just to mess with his head. ;-) Dinda - Show quoted text - On Mar 27, 2007, at 1:49 PM, Matt Good wrote: > On Tue, 2007-03-27 at 13:12 -0400, Elizabeth Bevilacqua wrote: >> On Tue, Mar 27, 2007 at 01:01:52PM -0400, Matt Good wrote: >>> On Tue, 2007-03-27 at 08:03 -0400, Elizabeth Bevilacqua wrote: >>>> The terrible thing about our ignoring it all is while we're >>>> toughening >>>> our skin and ignoring these people, another woman walked away from >>>> Ubuntu and nixternal and Matt Good haven't a clue why. >>> >>> Sorry, I don't read nixternal, so I don't know what incident you're >>> referring to. Maybe I'm just naive, or I don't subscribe to the >>> mailing >>> lists and blogs where this kind of stuff happens. >> >> I was just using the two of you as good guy examples - you both >> replied >> to this thread with similar comments about how "guys don't know >> this is >> going on" :) > > Heh, I misread that and didn't realize nixternal was a person (Rich > Johnson as I now see in the thread history); email can so easily > lead to > misunderstandings :). Reading this and the Kathy Sierra post I am > realizing I'm probably naive about this happening in parts of the OSS > community since it's not something I've seen, particularly not on the > level of what's happened with Kathy. > > -- Matt Good > > > -- > ubuntu-women mailing list > ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-women -- ubuntu-women mailing list ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-women Reply Forward Invite Lopez to Gmail Reply Reply to all Reply to allForward Forward Print Add t to Contacts list Delete this message Report phishing Show original Message text garbled? t u to Ubuntu-Women show details Mar 28 B.A. Lopez wrote: > [snip] This generates an error in my server logs as well as recording the IP > and machine info. This is how I discovered my ex-boyfriend was > reading my LJ [snip] I just don't know what to think about you knowing your ex-boyfriend's IP address. lol - Show quoted text - -- ubuntu-women mailing list ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-women Reply Forward Invite t to chat Reply Reply to all Reply to allForward Forward Print Add Lopez to Contacts list Delete this message Report phishing Show original Message text garbled? "B.A. Lopez" to Ubuntu-Women show details Mar 28 It was more of a matching game; I knew his machine type, preferred OS and ISP so when hits started coming in from someone new it was easy enough to figure out. Then he contacted me via email. . . but that's another story! lol ;-) Dinda - Show quoted text - On Mar 28, 2007, at 1:18 PM, t u wrote: > B.A. Lopez wrote: >> [snip] This generates an error in my server logs as well as >> recording the IP >> and machine info. This is how I discovered my ex-boyfriend was >> reading my LJ [snip] > > I just don't know what to think about you knowing your ex- > boyfriend's IP > address. lol > > -- > ubuntu-women mailing list > ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-women -- ubuntu-women mailing list ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-women Reply Forward Invite Lopez to Gmail Reply Reply to all Reply to allForward Forward Print Add Caroline to Contacts list Delete this message Report phishing Show original Message text garbled? Caroline Ford to Ubuntu-Women show details Mar 28 - Show quoted text - On Wed, 2007-03-28 at 09:58 -0500, B.A. Lopez wrote: > Yes, just b/c you don't see it or experience it personally doesn't > mean it's not happening. And much of it is subtle and subject to > personal/cultural differences so there are those issues as well. > > Here's tip for any worried about blogging. Since I use Live Journal > and don't have access to those server logs I often include a 1 pixel > by 1 pixel blank "test image" or even an incorrect image reference to > my own domain. i.e. in the html of the post I'll add an image link > to "". > This generates an error in my server logs as well as recording the IP > and machine info. This is how I discovered my ex-boyfriend was > reading my LJ and so I quickly started locking more posts to friends- > only. . . or in some cases sent out some misinformation just to mess > with his head. ;-) > > Dinda > > > On Mar 27, 2007, at 1:49 PM, Matt Good wrote: > > > On Tue, 2007-03-27 at 13:12 -0400, Elizabeth Bevilacqua wrote: > >> On Tue, Mar 27, 2007 at 01:01:52PM -0400, Matt Good wrote: > >>> On Tue, 2007-03-27 at 08:03 -0400, Elizabeth Bevilacqua wrote: > >>>> The terrible thing about our ignoring it all is while we're > >>>> toughening > >>>> our skin and ignoring these people, another woman walked away from > >>>> Ubuntu and nixternal and Matt Good haven't a clue why. > >>> > >>> Sorry, I don't read nixternal, so I don't know what incident you're > >>> referring to. Maybe I'm just naive, or I don't subscribe to the > >>> mailing > >>> lists and blogs where this kind of stuff happens. > >> > >> I was just using the two of you as good guy examples - you both > >> replied > >> to this thread with similar comments about how "guys don't know > >> this is > >> going on" :) > > > > Heh, I misread that and didn't realize nixternal was a person (Rich > > Johnson as I now see in the thread history); email can so easily > > lead to > > misunderstandings :). Reading this and the Kathy Sierra post I am > > realizing I'm probably naive about this happening in parts of the OSS > > community since it's not something I've seen, particularly not on the > > level of what's happened with Kathy. > > > > -- Matt Good Oh I've just been asked to leave the Ubuntu-UK planet because of my language. The comment referred to my "recent reaction to an email on the ubuntu-uk's mailing list." (complaining about a sexist joke). I'm naturally removing myself from the Ubuntu Uk planet - I don't see why I should make themselves look more diverse than they actually are. FUCK THE LOT OF THEM. There was only one woman in Ubuntu-UK (yes that's right, the whole of the UK), now there will be none. Caroline - Show quoted text - -- ubuntu-women mailing list ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-women Reply Reply to all Forward Invite Caroline to chat Reply Reply to all Reply to allForward Forward Print Add Elizabeth to Contacts list Delete this message Report phishing Show original Message text garbled? Elizabeth Bevilacqua to Ubuntu-Women show details Mar 28 On Wed, Mar 28, 2007 at 10:27:40PM +0100, Caroline Ford wrote: > Oh I've just been asked to leave the Ubuntu-UK planet because of my > language. The comment referred to my "recent reaction to an email on the > ubuntu-uk's mailing list." (complaining about a sexist joke). > > I'm naturally removing myself from the Ubuntu Uk planet - I don't see > why I should make themselves look more diverse than they actually are. > > FUCK THE LOT OF THEM. > > There was only one woman in Ubuntu-UK (yes that's right, the whole of > the UK), now there will be none. Ugh, that's horrible :( -- Elizabeth Bevilacqua // Lyz@PrincessLeia.com http://www.princessleia.com -- - Show quoted text - ubuntu-women mailing list ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-women Reply Forward Invite Elizabeth to Gmail Reply Reply to all Reply to allForward Forward Print Add Jan to Contacts list Delete this message Report phishing Show original Message text garbled? Jan Claeys to ubuntu-women show details Mar 29 Op woensdag 28-03-2007 om 22:27 uur [tijdzone +0100], schreef Caroline Ford: > Oh I've just been asked to leave the Ubuntu-UK planet because of my > language. The comment referred to my "recent reaction to an email on > the ubuntu-uk's mailing list." (complaining about a sexist joke). > > I'm naturally removing myself from the Ubuntu Uk planet - I don't see > why I should make themselves look more diverse than they actually are. > > FUCK THE LOT OF THEM. > > There was only one woman in Ubuntu-UK (yes that's right, the whole of > the UK), now there will be none. That won't solve any problems, IMHO this should be brought before the Community Council or something like that... -- Jan Claeys - Show quoted text - -- ubuntu-women mailing list ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-women Reply Forward Invite Jan to Gmail Reply Reply to all Reply to allForward Forward Print Add Lopez to Contacts list Delete this message Report phishing Show original Message text garbled? "B.A. Lopez" to Ubuntu-Women show details Mar 29 Caroline, do you have the link to their mail list archives? I'm rather curious to see how this played out and yes, it should be a CC issue if you feel you are being treated unfairly. Dinda - Show quoted text - On Mar 28, 2007, at 5:02 PM, Jan Claeys wrote: > Op woensdag 28-03-2007 om 22:27 uur [tijdzone +0100], schreef Caroline > Ford: >> Oh I've just been asked to leave the Ubuntu-UK planet because of my >> language. The comment referred to my "recent reaction to an email on >> the ubuntu-uk's mailing list." (complaining about a sexist joke). >> >> I'm naturally removing myself from the Ubuntu Uk planet - I don't see >> why I should make themselves look more diverse than they actually >> are. >> >> FUCK THE LOT OF THEM. >> >> There was only one woman in Ubuntu-UK (yes that's right, the whole of >> the UK), now there will be none. > > That won't solve any problems, IMHO this should be brought before the > Community Council or something like that... > > > -- > Jan Claeys > > > -- > ubuntu-women mailing list > ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-women -- ubuntu-women mailing list ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-women Reply Forward Invite Lopez to Gmail Reply Reply to all Reply to allForward Forward Print Add Matt to Contacts list Delete this message Report phishing Show original Message text garbled? Matt Good to Ubuntu-Women show details Mar 29 On Wed, 2007-03-28 at 17:21 -0500, B.A. Lopez wrote: > Caroline, > do you have the link to their mail list archives? I'm rather > curious to see how this played out and yes, it should be a CC issue > if you feel you are being treated unfairly. This is the blog entry where the user asked her to step down from the Ubuntu UK Planet: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-uk/2007-March/thread.html#3698 My interpretation of the user's comment is not that he/she disagreed with Caroline's post on the mailing list here about the sexist joke: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-uk/2007-March/thread.html#3698 Rather, it sounds like he/she was disappointed that after citing another user for violating the Ubuntu CoC on the mailing list that Caroline would use crude language on her own blog which is syndicated on the Ubuntu UK Planet. In that context I believe that this user's comment is justifiable. Caroline, I hope you consider rejoining the Planet. This sounds like a misunderstanding to me. -- Matt Good - Show quoted text - > On Mar 28, 2007, at 5:02 PM, Jan Claeys wrote: > > > Op woensdag 28-03-2007 om 22:27 uur [tijdzone +0100], schreef Caroline > > Ford: > >> Oh I've just been asked to leave the Ubuntu-UK planet because of my > >> language. The comment referred to my "recent reaction to an email on > >> the ubuntu-uk's mailing list." (complaining about a sexist joke). > >> > >> I'm naturally removing myself from the Ubuntu Uk planet - I don't see > >> why I should make themselves look more diverse than they actually > >> are. > >> > >> FUCK THE LOT OF THEM. > >> > >> There was only one woman in Ubuntu-UK (yes that's right, the whole of > >> the UK), now there will be none. > > > > That won't solve any problems, IMHO this should be brought before the > > Community Council or something like that... > > > > > > -- > > Jan Claeys > > > > > > -- > > ubuntu-women mailing list > > ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com > > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-women > > -- ubuntu-women mailing list ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-women Reply Forward Invite Matt to Gmail Reply Reply to all Reply to allForward Forward Print Add Caroline to Contacts list Delete this message Report phishing Show original Message text garbled? Caroline Ford to Ubuntu-Women show details Mar 29 On Wed, 2007-03-28 at 19:52 -0400, Matt Good wrote: > On Wed, 2007-03-28 at 17:21 -0500, B.A. Lopez wrote: > > Caroline, > > do you have the link to their mail list archives? I'm rather > > curious to see how this played out and yes, it should be a CC issue > > if you feel you are being treated unfairly. > > This is the blog entry where the user asked her to step down from the > Ubuntu UK Planet: > https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-uk/2007-March/thread.html#3698 > > My interpretation of the user's comment is not that he/she disagreed > with Caroline's post on the mailing list here about the sexist joke: > https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-uk/2007-March/thread.html#3698 > > Rather, it sounds like he/she was disappointed that after citing another > user for violating the Ubuntu CoC on the mailing list that Caroline > would use crude language on her own blog which is syndicated on the > Ubuntu UK Planet. In that context I believe that this user's comment is > justifiable. > > Caroline, I hope you consider rejoining the Planet. This sounds like a > misunderstanding to me. > > -- Matt Good I was going to try and not post any further on this as I will just wind myself up. I don't think you understand how unwelcome I feel. https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-uk/2007-March/003698.html is the start of the thread with the "joke". I have been reminded that some people actually left the mailing list after I said it was a code of conduct violation because it was humourless I think. https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-uk/2007-March/003730.html was the opinion of the leader of Ubuntu-UK - basically mocking me. There is a history of this stuff. When we were organising for the women's expo in October we got this - https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-uk/2006-September/000761.html Ana who responded hasn't posted since. Jono Bacon has referred to us all as "chaps", seemingly oblivious that some of us aren't (and has been politely reminded of this). They are a little boys club who's only known activity is organising a stall at the expo. I am being made to feel that I am the politically correct thought police. It's so much easier just to walk away - I don't get this in my lug, on wikipedia or in openstreetmap. Ubuntu is supposed to be *more* welcoming than average, it's very much less. I'm not going to take it to the Community Council as Jono is on the CC and he's their mate. I also feel that I'd be cross examined and it would prolong it - Ubuntu-UK just isn't worth that to me. Caroline - Show quoted text - -- ubuntu-women mailing list ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-women Reply Reply to all Forward Invite Caroline to chat Reply Reply to all Reply to allForward Forward Print Add t to Contacts list Delete this message Report phishing Show original Message text garbled? t u to caroline.ford.., Ubuntu-Women show details Mar 29 Caroline Ford wrote: > [snip] jokes [snip] Jono Bacon [snip] "chaps" [snip] > I am being made > to feel that I am the politically correct thought police. [snip] This happens usually when people who use the offensive language do not have the necessary critical & analytic skills neither to decrypt what they really are saying nor to grasp how oppression works thru language. One either has to gather all the patience in the world and explain time and again what it is that they really are saying, or just leave them alone in their mud... I'm hoping they will not be able to distance you from the community thru their motivated-ignorance. - Show quoted text - -- ubuntu-women mailing list ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-women Reply Reply to all Forward Invite t to chat Reply Reply to all Reply to allForward Forward Print Add Jan to Contacts list Delete this message Report phishing Show original Message text garbled? Jan Claeys to ubuntu-women show details Mar 29 Op donderdag 29-03-2007 om 01:20 uur [tijdzone +0100], schreef Caroline Ford: > I'm not going to take it to the Community Council as Jono is on the CC > and he's their mate. I also feel that I'd be cross examined and it > would prolong it - Ubuntu-UK just isn't worth that to me. The problem is that this might cause other people to stay away from ubuntu-uk as well as from Ubuntu in general. And I'm sure several of the men & women on this list will be there when this gets discussed on a CC meeting. -- Jan Claeys - Show quoted text - -- ubuntu-women mailing list ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-women Reply Forward Invite Jan to Gmail Reply Reply to all Reply to allForward Forward Print Add Mirjam to Contacts list Delete this message Report phishing Show original Message text garbled? Mirjam Wäckerlin to Ubuntu-Women show details Mar 29 H Caroline and Myriam, I feel sad that these things are happening to you! I have experienced some situations, too, which have left a bad taste in my mouth (like people abusing the situation when I was at the booth at linux events, trying to hit on me by asking technical questions and after wanting my private address, knowing that I can't tell them to p** off because I'm representing Ubuntu and have to be nice to them). I understand that you, Caroline, are sick of it and you prefer just to walk away to another place where you feel more welcome. On the other hand, you have to consider that there are also a lot of people supporting women (like pete did on the ubuntu-uk-thread), and if you take the step to go before the CC, this could really change things - for all women in Ubuntu. As Jan said, a lot of people would probably come to this meeting to support you. I know that it is annoying to step in and defend things which should be self-evident, but if we don't do it, who else is going to do it? I hope you won't remove your blog because of one comment - your blog is really important, because other women who might consider joining the project will be encouraged to do so by seeing that there's a woman's blog on the planet. And things can change! Four months ago, I was the only woman in our team (www.kubuntu-de.org), now we are three. Out of 20 people, that's not bad, I think, and the atmosphere in our team has clearly changed (it wasn't bad before, but it's even much better now ;) ). Mirjam - Show quoted text - -- ubuntu-women mailing list ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-women Reply Forward Invite Mirjam to chat Reply Reply to all Reply to allForward Forward Print Add sfr to Contacts list Delete this message Report phishing Show original Message text garbled? sfr to Ubuntu-Women show details Mar 29 On 27/03/07, Myriam Schweingruber wrote: > > I will certainly not keep my mouth shut and take action, contrary to some of > you I don't think this should simply be ignored, because it will continue and > this has to stop one day. I want to be able to do my work without such crap, > so ignoring it is not the solution. Completely agree. Ignoring it may be the the easiest and most comfortable option from a personal perspective, but if this behaviour is ignored (a) the culprit is not made aware of how anti-social their actions (and attitudes) are, (b) other people who would not dream of behaving in such a way are not aware that there is a problem, (c) there is no deterrent for any others who may think that such behaviour is acceptable. -- Elisabeth - Show quoted text - -- ubuntu-women mailing list ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-women Reply Forward Invite sfr to chat Reply Reply to all Reply to allForward Forward Print Add Lopez to Contacts list Delete this message Report phishing Show original Message text garbled? "B.A. Lopez" to caroline.ford.., Ubuntu-Women show details Mar 30 Well, you've certainly gotten the whole "planet" talking about these issues and that's probably not a bad thing. ;-) Just read a post from Corey and some others on the issues so it might be a good time for the CC to review the situation. Caroline, please don't feel you have to have to do anything further but if you are interested in discussing the issue you can catch me or others in the #ubuntu-women channel on IRC. Feel free to let us know what a good time for you might be as I think it's worth learning more about your situation and seeing if there is anything we can do to support. As I've said, we all seem to have stories but now we need to use them to make things better. Also, I'd love to hear more about the open streetmap project some time. One point of clarification in regards to the CC. Jono Bacon, the Ubuntu Community Manager, is not on the Community Council, per Mark/ sabdfl's request. A few months ago I would not have felt comfortable going before the CC either but after sitting in on a several meetings and learning how the process works, I've been rather impressed with it all. They have dealt with quite a few forums issues and will also consider things in private at someone's request. Current members of the CC are Mark Shuttleworth, Benjamin Mako-Hill, James Troup and Colin Watson. Colin is in the process of stepping down and elections were to be held - which reminds me, it seems that nothing has happened on those elections. Hmm, now that you've reminded me I just may ask the CC the status of those elections. I'm very curious to see which direction they are moving. cheers, Dinda - Show quoted text - On Mar 28, 2007, at 7:20 PM, Caroline Ford wrote: > On Wed, 2007-03-28 at 19:52 -0400, Matt Good wrote: >> On Wed, 2007-03-28 at 17:21 -0500, B.A. Lopez wrote: >>> Caroline, >>> do you have the link to their mail list archives? I'm rather >>> curious to see how this played out and yes, it should be a CC issue >>> if you feel you are being treated unfairly. >> >> This is the blog entry where the user asked her to step down from the >> Ubuntu UK Planet: >> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-uk/2007-March/ >> thread.html#3698 >> >> My interpretation of the user's comment is not that he/she disagreed >> with Caroline's post on the mailing list here about the sexist joke: >> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-uk/2007-March/ >> thread.html#3698 >> >> Rather, it sounds like he/she was disappointed that after citing >> another >> user for violating the Ubuntu CoC on the mailing list that Caroline >> would use crude language on her own blog which is syndicated on the >> Ubuntu UK Planet. In that context I believe that this user's >> comment is >> justifiable. >> >> Caroline, I hope you consider rejoining the Planet. This sounds >> like a >> misunderstanding to me. >> >> -- Matt Good > > I was going to try and not post any further on this as I will just > wind > myself up. > > I don't think you understand how unwelcome I feel. > https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-uk/2007-March/003698.html is > the start of the thread with the "joke". I have been reminded that > some > people actually left the mailing list after I said it was a code of > conduct violation because it was humourless I think. > https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-uk/2007-March/003730.html was > the opinion of the leader of Ubuntu-UK - basically mocking me. > > There is a history of this stuff. When we were organising for the > women's expo in October we got this - > https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-uk/2006-September/000761.html > Ana who responded hasn't posted since. > > Jono Bacon has referred to us all as "chaps", seemingly oblivious that > some of us aren't (and has been politely reminded of this). They are a > little boys club who's only known activity is organising a stall at > the > expo. I am being made to feel that I am the politically correct > thought > police. It's so much easier just to walk away - I don't get this in my > lug, on wikipedia or in openstreetmap. Ubuntu is supposed to be *more* > welcoming than average, it's very much less. > > I'm not going to take it to the Community Council as Jono is on the CC > and he's their mate. I also feel that I'd be cross examined and it > would > prolong it - Ubuntu-UK just isn't worth that to me. > > Caroline > > > -- > ubuntu-women mailing list > ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-women -- ubuntu-women mailing list ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-women Reply Reply to all Forward Invite Lopez to Gmail Reply Reply to all Reply to allForward Forward Print Add Elizabeth to Contacts list Delete this message Report phishing Show original Message text garbled? Elizabeth Bevilacqua to Ubuntu-Women show details Mar 30 On Thu, Mar 29, 2007 at 12:57:39PM +0200, Mirjam W?ckerlin wrote: > I understand that you, Caroline, are sick of it and you prefer just to > walk away to another place where you feel more welcome. On the other > hand, you have to consider that there are also a lot of people > supporting women (like pete did on the ubuntu-uk-thread), and if you > take the step to go before the CC, this could really change things - > for all women in Ubuntu. As Jan said, a lot of people would probably > come to this meeting to support you. > > I know that it is annoying to step in and defend things which should > be self-evident, but if we don't do it, who else is going to do it? I know this email is probably just meant to be a "convince her to come, here are the reasons" but I want to make clear that she is not obligated to do anything. Unfortunately emails like this put guilt on the victim in a way that is very unfortunate, especially when we say things like "you have to consider" - no she doesn't. Just because we're women and we put up with a lot doesn't mean we ALWAYS have to be champions of our gender and spend time and energy fighting for all the women in the future who might encounter this problem. And it's not our fault if some women in the future gets into this mess and we didn't stand up, remember who the victim is :) Most of us have jobs, families and hobbies outside of the FOSS world. Our FOSS time is limited and mostly on a volunteer basis, if someone feels insulted and wants to leave the project they spend their valuable spare time on that's perfectly acceptable. I don't want to make women here feel that once they report some bad behavior in Ubuntu that we're going to guilt her into doing something time-consuming and perhaps scary like defending herself in front of the CC. It's great when someone does have the time and desire to bring these things forward and fight all the way for equality, but I don't want people to think it's what is expected of us just because we're women. Mostly we just want to do the work that brought us to Ubuntu. And in the end, in a case like this one where all the evidence is in archived email and blogs, I think the Ubuntu-Women team itself can easily send representatives to deal with this issue at the CC. We don't need to pull Caroline in directly, she doesn't need to exhaust herself defending herself, we can say "This is happening, she contributed to her LoCo and now has been driven away, it needs to stop" There were even some "little" things that she brought up like the LoCo leader calling everyone "chaps" that are a sadly subtle way of making us feel excluded and need to be brought to someone's attention. That's what this team is all about :) Lyz/pleia2 -- Elizabeth Bevilacqua // Lyz@PrincessLeia.com http://www.princessleia.com -- - Show quoted text - ubuntu-women mailing list ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-women Reply Forward Invite Elizabeth to Gmail Reply Reply to all Reply to allForward Forward Print Add Mirjam to Contacts list Delete this message Report phishing Show original Message text garbled? Mirjam Wäckerlin to Ubuntu-Women show details Mar 30 Thank you Liz for your mail that brings up some very important points and also gives me the opportunity to clarify. > > I know that it is annoying to step in and defend things which should > > be self-evident, but if we don't do it, who else is going to do it? > > I know this email is probably just meant to be a "convince her to come, > here are the reasons" but I want to make clear that she is not obligated > to do anything. Unfortunately emails like this put guilt on the victim > in a way that is very unfortunate, especially when we say things like > "you have to consider" - no she doesn't. Just because we're women and we > put up with a lot doesn't mean we ALWAYS have to be champions of our > gender and spend time and energy fighting for all the women in the > future who might encounter this problem. And it's not our fault if some > women in the future gets into this mess and we didn't stand up, remember > who the victim is :) I am truly sorry if my mail sounded like "she is responsible to do something" or "it's her own fault if she doesn't do anything about it". That is definitely not what I wanted to say and I am not blaming the victim. My mail was only meant as an _encouragement_ to raise her voice, to tell her that a lot of people stand by her side and that it's not a hopeless situation. > Most of us have jobs, families and hobbies outside of the FOSS world. > Our FOSS time is limited and mostly on a volunteer basis, if someone > feels insulted and wants to leave the project they spend their valuable > spare time on that's perfectly acceptable. That is true. And I am happy that there are also people who step in to stop this mechanism like matthew (http://mjg59.livejournal.com/). > And in the end, in a case like this one where all the evidence is in > archived email and blogs, I think the Ubuntu-Women team itself can > easily send representatives to deal with this issue at the CC. That is indeed a good idea and also what imho the team is existing for. > We don't > need to pull Caroline in directly, she doesn't need to exhaust herself > defending herself, we can say "This is happening, she contributed to her > LoCo and now has been driven away, it needs to stop" There were even > some "little" things that she brought up like the LoCo leader calling > everyone "chaps" that are a sadly subtle way of making us feel excluded > and need to be brought to someone's attention. That's what this team is > all about :) I perfectly agree with you. So what do you think (this question is directed to all subscribers) should ubuntu-women go to CC to deal with this issue? Mirjam - Show quoted text - -- ubuntu-women mailing list ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-women Reply Forward Invite Mirjam to chat Reply Reply to all Reply to allForward Forward Print Add Lopez to Contacts list Delete this message Report phishing Show original Message text garbled? "B.A. Lopez" to Ubuntu-Women show details Mar 31 My first reaction was "nah, I don't see any reason for U-W to go to the CC with this." After all Caroline did what she felt best for her situation, as did Miriam, as did Lyz, Melissa and many others but then I realized there is a definite pattern here that needs to be recorded and "someone" (everyone) needs to be made aware of it. Lyz referenced this blog entry in her own blog and it really made me rethink some things. I used to read Fark.com regularly but I realize Slashdot is often just as bad with the "This thread useless without pics" comments whenever a woman posts or is referenced in an article. Here's an excerpt from Caveat Lector: http://cavlec.yarinareth.net/archives/2007/03/30/what-some-folks-can- do-if-they-choose/ "But the cycle can be broken. It just has to be broken by men. And, I believe, it needs to be broken as early as possible in the cycle, while the norms of a particular community are still forming. Once they’ve crystallized such that pr0n jokes and “I’d hit that” are acceptable, the battle is lost. That community is inevitably going to drive away some woman sometime, and probably a lot of them. Moreover, I have yet to see such a community reform itself." That last line worries me a great deal b/c I think Ubuntu is still in the formation stages. But as to what to take to the CC, I'd like your suggestions. I told some folks in private email that this could also just be an email to the CC making them aware of this pattern rather than anyone having to attend a CC meeting. I'm willing to do both, either or even nothing if that is the general consensus. Did we ever set a time for the next U-W IRC meeting for April 14/15? I think we got a topic to discuss. ;-) regards, Dinda - Show quoted text - On Mar 30, 2007, at 7:21 AM, Mirjam Wäckerlin wrote: >> And in the end, in a case like this one where all the evidence is in >> archived email and blogs, I think the Ubuntu-Women team itself can >> easily send representatives to deal with this issue at the CC. > > That is indeed a good idea and also what imho the team is existing > for. > >> We don't >> need to pull Caroline in directly, she doesn't need to exhaust >> herself >> defending herself, we can say "This is happening, she contributed >> to her >> LoCo and now has been driven away, it needs to stop" There were even >> some "little" things that she brought up like the LoCo leader calling >> everyone "chaps" that are a sadly subtle way of making us feel >> excluded >> and need to be brought to someone's attention. That's what this >> team is >> all about :) > > I perfectly agree with you. > So what do you think (this question is directed to all subscribers) > should ubuntu-women go to CC to deal with this issue? > > Mirjam -- ubuntu-women mailing list ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-women Reply Forward Invite Lopez to Gmail Reply Reply to all Reply to allForward Forward Print Add Lopez to Contacts list Delete this message Report phishing Show original Message text garbled? "B.A. Lopez" to Ubuntu-Women show details Mar 31 Ack and I keep misspelling Myriam's name! Sorry, Myriam. Dinda On Mar 31, 2007, at 9:22 AM, B.A. Lopez wrote: > My first reaction was "nah, I don't see any reason for U-W to go to > the CC with this." After all Caroline did what she felt best for her > situation, as did Miriam, - Show quoted text - -- ubuntu-women mailing list ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-women Reply Forward Invite Lopez to Gmail Reply Reply to all Reply to allForward Forward Print Add Caroline to Contacts list Delete this message Report phishing Show original Message text garbled? Caroline Ford to Ubuntu-Women show details Mar 31 http://www.jonobacon.org/?p=932 This is Jono Bacon's take on the matter. Somebody whom I'm generally not very impressed with. Matthew Garrett and Mako have a *much* better understanding of the issues involved. Jono appears not to have read the Code of Conduct. Caroline - Show quoted text - -- ubuntu-women mailing list ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-women Reply Reply to all Forward Invite Caroline to chat Reply Reply to all Reply to allForward Forward Print Add t to Contacts list Delete this message Report phishing Show original Message text garbled? t u to Ubuntu-Women show details Mar 31 > http://www.jonobacon.org/?p=932 I find his understanding of "diversity" worrying... > Here's an excerpt from Caveat Lector: > > http://cavlec.yarinareth.net/archives/2007/03/30/what-some-folks-can- > do-if-they-choose/ > > "But the cycle can be broken. It just has to be broken by men. And, I > believe, it needs to be broken as early as possible in the cycle, > while the norms of a particular community are still forming. Once > they’ve crystallized such that pr0n jokes and “I’d hit that” are > acceptable, the battle is lost. That community is inevitably going to > drive away some woman sometime, and probably a lot of them. > Moreover, I have yet to see such a community reform itself." > > That last line worries me a great deal b/c I think Ubuntu is still in > the formation stages. I kinda agree. On the one hand, the cycle is easier to break at the beginning by men. But it's a bit utopic, because men will not have any desire to break it because they'll loose privileges as a result. On the other hand, it is possible to break the cycle later on by women (or else, there is no hope for feminist struggle -after all, society is an established community-). - Show quoted text - -- ubuntu-women mailing list ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-women Reply Forward Invite t to chat Reply Reply to all Reply to allForward Forward Print Add Anna to Contacts list Delete this message Report phishing Show original Message text garbled? Anna Buttfield to Ubuntu-Women show details Apr 1 Sorry about the long email, but I need to vent ... I hadn't really thought too much about how the misogyny that lurks (not very far) under the surface of sites like digg and slashdot has the power to effect women who are in interested in technology. I'm thinking about it now, and the more I think about it, the angrier I'm getting. I learnt a long time ago that its not worth reading certain comment threads on this kind of site. I know that, generally, anything talking about women in tech or women in general is going to be filled with the kind of comments that will only make me angry and depressed. The comments range from openly hostile to jokingly hostile to plain clueless, but they're rarely censored or corrected by the "community". When the Kathy Sierra story was breaking I mentioned to a friend that I didn't want to read the comment thread on digg. He didn't understand why not. It turns out I misjudged the thread about Kathy Sierra, even they couldn't laugh off that one. When I pointed out another story that had made the front page of digg a day or two later (http://digg.com/offbeat_news/Cyberbullies_scare_schoolgirls_into_stripping_online), he didn't understand the connection. The news article in question wasn't particularly good, and on its merits probably shouldn't have made the front page. The tone and attitude of the comments was poisonous, though, and the few comments that actually talked about the issue seriously were buried by the community. And this got me thinking. This kind of crap is never far below the surface of this kind of site, so I'm not surprised that not many women get involved in them. But these sites tend to be major sources of news and information in geek circles. I suspect that a lot of people getting involved in tech will start with this kind of news site, and if this is the kind of introduction women get I'm surprised that any women at all would pursue a budding interest further. Once you're in the field, there's this feeling that you're not a "real" techie person unless you keep up with all the news as it breaks (meaning checking digg etc as often as you can get away with). If you don't want to do that, well, maybe you just don't love tech enough to be in the industry (or maybe you just don't want to be checking sites like that in a situation where its inappropriate to start shouting at the computer, or you think that constantly being reminded about all the jerks out there might break your concentration a bit). Sometimes it just feels like the geekier corners of the internet are treehouses filled with little boys and a "no girls" sign on the door. You could maybe force your way in by pretending to be a boy, or getting their mothers involved, but it doesn't really seem worth getting inside. Maybe all we can do it leave them to their little treehouses, and keep building our own clubhouses with our own rules. The state of play in the geek/tech world is really depressing sometimes, though. Anna - Show quoted text - On 4/1/07, B.A. Lopez wrote: > My first reaction was "nah, I don't see any reason for U-W to go to > the CC with this." After all Caroline did what she felt best for her > situation, as did Miriam, as did Lyz, Melissa and many others but > then I realized there is a definite pattern here that needs to be > recorded and "someone" (everyone) needs to be made aware of it. > Lyz referenced this blog entry in her own blog and it really made me > rethink some things. I used to read Fark.com regularly but I realize > Slashdot is often just as bad with the "This thread useless without > pics" comments whenever a woman posts or is referenced in an > article. Here's an excerpt from Caveat Lector: > > http://cavlec.yarinareth.net/archives/2007/03/30/what-some-folks-can- > do-if-they-choose/ > > "But the cycle can be broken. It just has to be broken by men. And, I > believe, it needs to be broken as early as possible in the cycle, > while the norms of a particular community are still forming. Once > they've crystallized such that pr0n jokes and "I'd hit that" are > acceptable, the battle is lost. That community is inevitably going to > drive away some woman sometime, and probably a lot of them. Moreover, > I have yet to see such a community reform itself." > > That last line worries me a great deal b/c I think Ubuntu is still in > the formation stages. But as to what to take to the CC, I'd like > your suggestions. I told some folks in private email that this could > also just be an email to the CC making them aware of this pattern > rather than anyone having to attend a CC meeting. I'm willing to do > both, either or even nothing if that is the general consensus. > > Did we ever set a time for the next U-W IRC meeting for April 14/15? > I think we got a topic to discuss. ;-) > > regards, > > Dinda > > On Mar 30, 2007, at 7:21 AM, Mirjam Wäckerlin wrote: > > >> And in the end, in a case like this one where all the evidence is in > >> archived email and blogs, I think the Ubuntu-Women team itself can > >> easily send representatives to deal with this issue at the CC. > > > > That is indeed a good idea and also what imho the team is existing > > for. > > > >> We don't > >> need to pull Caroline in directly, she doesn't need to exhaust > >> herself > >> defending herself, we can say "This is happening, she contributed > >> to her > >> LoCo and now has been driven away, it needs to stop" There were even > >> some "little" things that she brought up like the LoCo leader calling > >> everyone "chaps" that are a sadly subtle way of making us feel > >> excluded > >> and need to be brought to someone's attention. That's what this > >> team is > >> all about :) > > > > I perfectly agree with you. > > So what do you think (this question is directed to all subscribers) > > should ubuntu-women go to CC to deal with this issue? > > > > Mirjam > > > -- > ubuntu-women mailing list > ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-women > -- ubuntu-women mailing list ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-women Reply Forward Invite Anna to chat Reply Reply to all Reply to allForward Forward Print Add Joel to Contacts list Delete this message Report phishing Show original Message text garbled? Joel Bryan Juliano to Ubuntu-Women show details Apr 1 On 4/1/07, Anna Buttfield wrote: Sometimes it just feels like the geekier corners of the internet are treehouses filled with little boys and a "no girls" sign on the door. You could maybe force your way in by pretending to be a boy, or getting their mothers involved, but it doesn't really seem worth getting inside. Maybe all we can do it leave them to their little treehouses, and keep building our own clubhouses with our own rules. The state of play in the geek/tech world is really depressing sometimes, though. I think what is happening is clearly similar to spam and adware found in the trusted sites in the Internet, like when visiting a site that you trust then suddenly, it require you to install an adware. This kind of situation is not pretty, and should not be tolerated. I think this problem needs to be solved for the benefit of the community. As with any bug reports, the success of it being squashed is determined based on the choices the community make. Some people react and some people respond.. Sometimes they play hand in hand, but sometimes, optimistic people who respond to the problem get it done. - Show quoted text - -- MAILING-LIST SEND: boom!! I'm immortalize! -- ubuntu-women mailing list ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-women Reply Forward Invite Joel to chat Reply Reply to all Reply to allForward Forward Print Add Amanda to Contacts list Delete this message Report phishing Show original Message text garbled? Amanda Angell to Ubuntu-Women show details Apr 1 On Sunday 01 April 2007 9:30 am, Anna Buttfield wrote: > Sometimes it just feels like the geekier corners of the internet are > treehouses filled with little boys and a "no girls" sign on the door. > You could maybe force your way in by pretending to be a boy, or > getting their mothers involved, but it doesn't really seem worth > getting inside. Hi, This is my first post on Ubuntu-Women, but this post reminded me of a site that I had to delete from my RSS feed because of the 'feeling' I got there, but I never could put it into words. Now you've made me realise just exactly why I hate it. The site is Gizmodo, and they write like there are simply NO women reading it. Why would they? I thought some of what they had to write about was interesting, but the immature writing, and the sexism turned me off. There were no women posting comments, and I really aren't the kind of person willing to put myself up to 100 flame-posts because I wanted to comment on the topic (wether the topic was sexist or otherwise). So, rather than fight, I gave up. I agree, it doesn't seem worth getting inside. It just means that women will congregate around the better sites (or start their own) in the future, although I wonder what this will mean for the future of the internet. I can only hope it will continue to get better, and more mature. Amanda. -- - Show quoted text - ubuntu-women mailing list ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-women Reply Forward Invite Amanda to Gmail Reply Reply to all Reply to allForward Forward Print Add t to Contacts list Delete this message Report phishing Show original Message text garbled? t u to Ubuntu-Women show details Apr 1 Amanda Angell wrote: > [snip] It just means that women will congregate around the better sites (or start > their own) in the future [snip] There won't be any "better sites" if no one fights back though... - Show quoted text - -- ubuntu-women mailing list ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-women Reply Forward Invite t to chat Reply Reply to all Reply to allForward Forward Print Add Amanda to Contacts list Delete this message Report phishing Show original Message text garbled? Amanda Angell to Ubuntu-Women show details Apr 1 On Sunday 01 April 2007 3:45 pm, t u wrote: > Amanda Angell wrote: > > [snip] It just means that women will congregate around the better sites > > (or start their own) in the future [snip] > > There won't be any "better sites" if no one fights back though... There already are better sites out there than the *one* I don't go to anymore. What's the point of trying to make all the bad ones good? Sounds like a fight that we'll never win, certainly not everywhere. The internet isn't all doom-and-gloom for women. There are more positive things we can be doing with our time. :) Amanda. - Show quoted text - -- ubuntu-women mailing list ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-women Reply Forward Invite Amanda to Gmail Reply Reply to all Reply to allForward Forward Print Add Miss to Contacts list Delete this message Report phishing Show original Message text garbled? Miss Augustina to ubuntu-women show details Apr 1 I totally agree. Although some sites are pretty central, like Slashdot. Sometimes you can't really moderate the community but if your organizers uphold a standard then it helps. I tend to filter a lot when I'm interacting with those sites, and while sexism is a big deal, there is also a lot of general stupidity that even smart people have to filter out. The state of the world is that most people are stupid and that's really really sad. I'm lucky to have found the Ubuntu community where there seems to be less of that than in most places. It's really up to us to support sites and become active in those communities. It's also important to speak out in the right context when we feel something is wrong. Not necessarily with the intention of fixing it, but sometimes just identifying a problem is important. Augustina On 4/1/07, ubuntu-women-request@lists.ubuntu.com < ubuntu-women-request@lists.ubuntu.com> wrote: Message: 4 Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 16:18:20 +0930 From: Amanda Angell Subject: Re: [UbuntuWomen] Some will never learn... To: Ubuntu-Women < ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com> Message-ID: <200704011618.21135.amandaangell@spin.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" On Sunday 01 April 2007 3:45 pm, t u wrote: > Amanda Angell wrote: > > [snip] It just means that women will congregate around the better sites > > (or start their own) in the future [snip] > > There won't be any "better sites" if no one fights back though... There already are better sites out there than the *one* I don't go to anymore. What's the point of trying to make all the bad ones good? Sounds like a fight that we'll never win, certainly not everywhere. The internet isn't all doom-and-gloom for women. There are more positive things we can be doing with our time. :) Amanda. -- do you ubuntu? http://www.ubuntu.com -- ubuntu-women mailing list ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-women Reply Forward Invite Miss to chat Reply Reply to all Reply to allForward Forward Print Add Melissa to Contacts list Delete this message Report phishing Show original Message text garbled? Melissa Draper to Ubuntu-Women show details Apr 2 Caroline Ford wrote: > http://www.jonobacon.org/?p=932 > > This is Jono Bacon's take on the matter. Somebody whom I'm generally not > very impressed with. > > Matthew Garrett and Mako have a *much* better understanding of the > issues involved. Jono appears not to have read the Code of Conduct. > > Caroline Caroline, I know you're angry, I really do. I've been there before for different but unfortunately related reasons. However, we do need to take a rational look at things. That is all that was asked for in the blog post you referred to, we need to provide a balanced perspective. The blogosphere, related communities and the media are currently taking note of what is going on, reading, following, waiting with baited breath for the next twist to this story. Our conversation here for instance is being played out in the public eye. Having said that, I'd respectfully like to now ask you to please think about what is being said. On Thursday, I spoke over the issue, your issue, with Jono Bacon and the Ubuntu-UK Contact, the two people you mentioned in your email on that day. Neither were impressed with the comments you made about them in the publicly viewable forum that is this list. They were both quite disappointed with the way you spoke about them, without having consulted either beforehand. I am personally quite disappointed at the things you have said about Jono, of lacking impartiality and not complying with the CoC. It may be perceived that I am taking a side here. I am. I am taking the side of someone who I've worked with intensively since September, and is someone who I consider to be both a friend and a mentor. Looking over the past week, and I say this as respectfully as it is possible to do so, I can see that you yourself have not been entirely respectful - having said things about others without having first properly consulted them. So please, and this is to everyone on the list, if you have a problem with someone, talk to the person. If you have an issue with the way that person dealt with it, please take it to someone who's position or job it is to handle such disputes. -- Sincerely Melissa Draper http://www.meldraweb.com Phone: 0404 595 395 (intl): +61 404 595 395 P.O Box 1412 Lavington, NSW 2641 -- - Show quoted text - ubuntu-women mailing list ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-women Reply Forward Invite Melissa to Gmail Reply Reply to all Reply to allForward Forward Print Add Vid to Contacts list Delete this message Report phishing Show original Message text garbled? Vid Ayer to Ubuntu-Women show details Apr 2 On 3/29/07, Caroline Ford wrote: > > Oh I've just been asked to leave the Ubuntu-UK planet because of my > language. The comment referred to my "recent reaction to an email on the > ubuntu-uk's mailing list." (complaining about a sexist joke). > > I'm naturally removing myself from the Ubuntu Uk planet - I don't see > why I should make themselves look more diverse than they actually are. > > FUCK THE LOT OF THEM. I was observing the turn of events and think this language is inappropriate here too, irrespective of gender. I understand your anger/disappointment but it cant justify the above. On a personal note, since I have experienced it too, I know how it feels. Last year, I left the Indian loco team but still don't think its necessary to return aggressiveness that I got (yes even on my blog). IMO, if anyone leaves a volunteer project for any reason its a loss to the project (here Ubuntu) and not to the individual themselves. They will take their *skills, talent and most importantly their time elsewhere*. I have done that earlier and as women we don't need to feel guilty about leaving if our efforts are not appreciated. You have a choice and are free to exercise it without feeling guilty about the project losing a contributing member like you. Its their loss not yours !! You probably know this but still I wanted to share my thoughts. On 3/30/07, Mirjam Wäckerlin wrote: > > I perfectly agree with you. > So what do you think (this question is directed to all subscribers) > should ubuntu-women go to CC to deal with this issue? From, http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct [/quote] This Code of Conduct covers your behaviour as a member of the Ubuntu Community, in any forum, mailing list, wiki, web site, IRC channel, install-fest, public meeting or private correspondence. [/unquote] The above says it all and it definitely works both ways. Although it does not mention blogs clearly, i guess the COC is applicable there too. That said, if anyone wants to approach the CC, they have a right to do so. Irrespective of opinions of people on this list or elsewhere, the decision should be taken by the person/s concerned, without us adding more pressure by foisting our thoughts on them. -- thanks, Vid http://www.svaksha.com - Show quoted text - -- ubuntu-women mailing list ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-women Reply Forward Invite Vid to chat Reply Reply to all Reply to allForward Forward Print Add t to Contacts list Delete this message Report phishing Show original Message text garbled? t u to Ubuntu-Women show details Apr 3 Hi, Melissa Draper wrote: > [snip] That is all that was asked for in the blog post > you referred to, we need to provide a balanced perspective. > I think you should read the comments of the blog. Jono Bacon is showing a lack of understanding of what really is going on (let alone his understanding of diversity). And that's problematic especially because he is high up in the Canonical company hierarhcy. > On Thursday, I spoke over the issue, your issue, with Jono Bacon and the > Ubuntu-UK Contact, the two people you mentioned in your email on that > day. Neither were impressed with the comments you made about them in the > publicly viewable forum that is this list. They were both quite > disappointed with the way you spoke about them, without having consulted > either beforehand. I think this is an unfortunate paragraph. the ubuntu-uk contact (I presume the admin) is, afaik, the person that needs to apologize. He is also the person who failed to reinforce the CoC. Jono Bacon, on the other hand, needs to revisit his understanding of diversity and oppression / privilege. I provided him with scholarly material to read about the social function of humor in his blog... Instead, talking about these two people's disappointment with Caroline Ford, to me, is plain old intimidation. My observation is that we are expecting them to perceive their behavior for what it is (however subtle it may be),. We're not expecting them to be impressed etc... > I am personally quite disappointed at the things you have said about > Jono, of lacking impartiality and not complying with the CoC. It may be > perceived that I am taking a side here. I am. I am taking the side of > someone who I've worked with intensively since September, and is someone > who I consider to be both a friend and a mentor. > > Looking over the past week, and I say this as respectfully as it is > possible to do so, I can see that you yourself have not been entirely > respectful - having said things about others without having first > properly consulted them. > You know -being disrespected, discriminated against, and intimidated would make me curse as well. It seems to me that by scrutinizing Caroline Ford's emotional reaction to being discriminated against, we are not only blaming the victim, we are also point out to a scapegoat instead of solving the problem at hand... > So please, and this is to everyone on the list, if you have a problem > with someone, talk to the person. I have to disagree. If that someone is a ubuntu-related mailing list admin or a higher-up worker of Canonical, the community should be made aware of what is going on. I personally appreciate Caroline Ford's bravery in pointing us to her experiences of discrimination. If no one points us to problems, those problems will get bigger and become the essence of the community / culture... It's like a major software bug. If you write code on top of that bug, it will be too late to fix it after some time (see MS). t u - Show quoted text - -- ubuntu-women mailing list ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-women Reply Forward Invite t to chat Reply Reply to all Reply to allForward Forward Print Add Yolynne to Contacts list Delete this message Report phishing Show original Message text garbled? Yolynne Medina to Ubuntu-Women show details Apr 3 I have read the long thread and have understood all opinions being voiced upon. However, I want to impart to everybody that we need to respect each other's views. Pls. do try to view this like a brother and sister situation. I hope that this would not result to an unending debate. Peace! YM -- ubuntu-women mailing list ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-women Reply Forward Invite Yolynne to chat Reply Reply to all Reply to allForward Forward Print Add Elizabeth to Contacts list Delete this message Report phishing Show original Message text garbled? Elizabeth Bevilacqua to Ubuntu-Women show details Apr 1 On Sun, Apr 01, 2007 at 10:00:38AM +1000, Anna Buttfield wrote: > I hadn't really thought too much about how the misogyny that lurks > (not very far) under the surface of sites like digg and slashdot has > the power to effect women who are in interested in technology. I'm > thinking about it now, and the more I think about it, the angrier I'm > getting. > Maybe all we can do it leave them to their little treehouses, and keep > building our own clubhouses with our own rules. The state of play in > the geek/tech world is really depressing sometimes, though. Anna, Thank you for this post! It's fantastic. I think this is really what's missing in the arguments we get from a lot of men. The arguments only scratch the surface of the problem and don't take into account all the things you have said. I hear SO OFTEN that we over-react to things, but it's just because this misogyny has been simmering for so long - as soon as it boils over just a little we all jump up and say "See! Look! This needs to stop!" -- Elizabeth Bevilacqua // Lyz@PrincessLeia.com http://www.princessleia.com -- - Show quoted text - ubuntu-women mailing list ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-women Reply Forward Invite Elizabeth to Gmail Reply Reply to all Reply to allForward Forward Print Add Melissa to Contacts list Delete this message Report phishing Show original Message text garbled? Melissa Draper to Ubuntu-Women show details Apr 3 t u wrote: > >> n Thursday, I spoke over the issue, your issue, with Jono Bacon and the >> Ubuntu-UK Contact, the two people you mentioned in your email on that >> day. Neither were impressed with the comments you made about them in the >> publicly viewable forum that is this list. They were both quite >> disappointed with the way you spoke about them, without having consulted >> either beforehand. >> > > I think this is an unfortunate paragraph. the ubuntu-uk contact (I > presume the admin) is, afaik, the person that needs to apologize. He is > also the person who failed to reinforce the CoC. Jono Bacon, on the > other hand, needs to revisit his understanding of diversity and > oppression / privilege. I provided him with scholarly material to read > about the social function of humor in his blog... > > Instead, talking about these two people's disappointment with Caroline > Ford, to me, is plain old intimidation. My observation is that we are > expecting them to perceive their behavior for what it is (however subtle > it may be),. We're not expecting them to be impressed etc... > > The only form of communicating that was done with the UK Contact was the email to the whole list, the one time, announcing that the posting was a breach of the CoC. To my knowledge, the UK Contact received no further communication - no personal emails, no attempts of conversation. Yet he was still expected to perceive what her disgruntlement was? How? The Ubuntu-UK contact said this: "in terms of a personal attack I feel it was not respectful but with respect to the above im not sure it is intended as a attack on any level." I read this as: Yes, it was disrespectful and naughty, but it was not intended to be personal or malicious. I'm not quite sure what Caroline expected. The poster received a public shaming and reprimands. Expulsion and burning at the stake would be overkill. If I make a mistake, I hope to be given the benefit of the doubt first, not the death sentence. The contact took the information from what he could see, the original poster's email, and Caroline's single response. From there he weighed up the facts, conceded that the original poster was wrong, but at the same time, balance the decision based on intent. I'm not sure if the UK Contact has tried to communicate with Caroline, but I do know that Jono has, in an attempt to get understanding from her perspective. He has received no response to his attempts to reach out and help, but instead continued badmouthing about him. My intention is not and was not to intimidate anyone, however my intention was to point out that nobody is exempt from misbehavior just because they have been wronged. Wronged people are *not* privileged to wrong others. Maybe you need to revisit too? >> I am personally quite disappointed at the things you have said about >> Jono, of lacking impartiality and not complying with the CoC. It may be >> perceived that I am taking a side here. I am. I am taking the side of >> someone who I've worked with intensively since September, and is someone >> who I consider to be both a friend and a mentor. >> >> Looking over the past week, and I say this as respectfully as it is >> possible to do so, I can see that you yourself have not been entirely >> respectful - having said things about others without having first >> properly consulted them. >> >> > > You know -being disrespected, discriminated against, and intimidated > would make me curse as well. It seems to me that by scrutinizing > Caroline Ford's emotional reaction to being discriminated against, we > are not only blaming the victim, we are also point out to a scapegoat > instead of solving the problem at hand... > I'm not scrutinizing her emotional reaction. I understand her need to vent, and I'm not blaming her - I've suffered similar in my time and had similar reactions. However I am pointing out that in her quest to have someone smited for a discriminatory and disrespectful act, she herself is discriminating and being disrespectful. Publicly accusing Jono of the inability to be impartial because of association, gender and choice of colloquial words, without first giving him a chance, is disrespectful and discriminatory. This has *no longer* has anything to do with the post on the -UK mailing list, or the events that happened there. This has to do with what has been said here on *this* list, and the events that are currently happening here. As I said before, the wronged are not privileged to wrong. >> So please, and this is to everyone on the list, if you have a problem >> with someone, talk to the person. >> > > I have to disagree. If that someone is a ubuntu-related mailing list > admin or a higher-up worker of Canonical, the community should be made > aware of what is going on. I personally appreciate Caroline Ford's > bravery in pointing us to her experiences of discrimination. > > > If no one points us to problems, those problems will get bigger and > become the essence of the community / culture... > Sure, let the community know. I do not disagree with this. However don't make it a witch hunt. While I was in the discussion with Jono and the UK Contact, they asked me why *nobody* had come to talk to either of them, why *nobody* had communicated with them, why *nobody* had given them a chance, before speaking foul of them in public. I could not answer this. All I knew, and all I could tell them, was that *I* was talking to them, communicating with them and giving them a chance. Unfortunately, it was not before they were spoken of. -- Sincerely Melissa Draper http://www.meldraweb.com Phone: 0404 595 395 (intl): +61 404 595 395 P.O Box 1412 Lavington, NSW 2641 -- - Show quoted text - ubuntu-women mailing list ubuntu-women@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-women Reply Forward Invite Melissa to Gmail Reply Reply to all Reply to allForward Forward Print Add t to Contacts list Delete this message Report phishing Show original Message text garbled? t u to Ubuntu-Women show details Mar 30 >> We don't >> need to pull Caroline in directly, she doesn't need to exhaust herself >> defending herself, we can say "This is happening, she contributed to her >> LoCo and now has been driven away, it needs to stop" There were even >> some "little" things that she brought up like the LoCo leader calling >> everyone "chaps" that are a sadly subtle way of making us feel excluded >> and need to be brought to someone's attention. That's what this team is >> all about :) > > I perfectly agree with you. > So what do you think (this question is directed to all subscribers) > should ubuntu-women go to CC to deal with this issue? > > Mirjam > I think that should be the decision / proposition by Caroline. If ubuntu-women goes to the CC _without_ Caroline's approval, then I'd say that's just gonna piss her off a bit more (+ it's probably gonna cause unwarranted headache for her) :) But if Caroline says "do it", then I would say one of the functions of ubuntu-women is to protect female Ubuntu users against offenses like this anyway. Hence, in that case, ubuntu-women has to go to the CC _on behalf_ of Caroline if needed (so that she doesn't need to do anything but point us to "what was said where"...). PS. I don't suggest that we ask Caroline. I suggest that we don't do anything unless Caroline asks. It should be okay for members to rant without having to file a complaint, on some occasions at least...